Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Post by Strider » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:54 pm
Should IRS Form 1040 and associated schedules be stapled or attached to each other in some way? The tax packet instructions say nothing in this regard.
HueyLD Posts: 9867 Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:30 amPost by HueyLD » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:59 pm
My thinking is that the IRS employees prefer not having to remove staples.
My state specifically asks us not to staple our tax forms because injuries due to staple removal caused the state a lot of money in worker’s compensation insurance.
FIREchief Posts: 6916 Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:40 pmPost by FIREchief » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:42 pm
I usually just use an appropriately sized paper clip. I'm guessing/hoping that the processing centers haul out buckets of those and recycle the metal.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
Kenkat Posts: 9839 Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:18 am Location: Cincinnati, OHPost by Kenkat » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:49 pm
I don’t think you need to. The first thing they will do is remove the paper clip or staple and electronically scan everything to image.
Last edited by Kenkat on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total. UpperNwGuy Posts: 9860 Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pmPost by UpperNwGuy » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:50 pm
Kenkat wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:49 pm I don’t think you need to. The first thing they will do is remove the paper clip and electronically scan everything to image.
And if you skip the paper and file electronically, life will be easier for all parties concerned. kaneohe Posts: 6786 Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:38 pmPost by kaneohe » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:28 pm
what if you had a 2-sided form like the 1040 but because IRS did not send them out on time, you printed single-sided pages. Should you create a 2-sided page (tape) or leave them as 1 sided pages?
rkhusky Posts: 18988 Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:09 pmPost by rkhusky » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:50 pm
Yes, staple them together in the specified order in the upper left. Staple your W2 to the front page halfway down on the left. Do not staple the 1040-V to your forms.
Nicolas Posts: 5291 Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:41 amPost by Nicolas » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:51 pm
Do not staple anything. Your W2, if you have one, should be paper clipped to the back of form 1040 page 1, nothing else in a paper clip. That’s the way they want it and that the way it’s always been.
Read the specific instructions from the IRS, they tell you how to assemble your return!
Madam, in Eden I’m Adam veggivet Posts: 1532 Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:07 pm Location: New EnglandPost by veggivet » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:00 pm
Staplers will be audited! CoastalWinds Posts: 1063 Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pmPost by CoastalWinds » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:05 pm
Nicolas wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:51 pm Do not staple anything. Your W2, if you have one, should be paper clipped to the back of form 1040 page 1, nothing else in a paper clip. That’s the way they want it and that the way it’s always been.
Read the specific instructions from the IRS, they tell you how to assemble your return!
The instructions say to “attach” the W2. What does that mean? Last edited by CoastalWinds on Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total. Nicolas Posts: 5291 Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:41 amPost by Nicolas » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:07 pm
CoastalWinds wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:05 pmNicolas wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:51 pm Do not staple anything. Your W2, if you have one, should be paper clipped to the back of form 1040 page 1, nothing else in a paper clip. That’s the way they want it and that the way it’s always been.
Read the specific instructions from the IRS, they tell you how to assemble your return!
I did read the instructions, and it contradicts your statement. While it’s silent on the staple topic, it does say that the W2 goes first (not paper-clipped to the back).
Sorry, maybe that’s my state’s instructions. I guess if the feds are silent on staples then go berserk
Madam, in Eden I’m Adam CoastalWinds Posts: 1063 Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pmPost by CoastalWinds » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:03 pm
The instructions say to “attach” the W-2 to the return. What does “attach” mean? mortfree Posts: 3013 Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 pmPost by mortfree » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:32 am
I have always stapled the W-2 to the 1040 form.
All forms are then folded and placed in an envelope. No other staples, tape, paper clips, binder clips, etc. to secure the packet of forms.
it is an interesting question.
Closer to 50 than 40 aristotelian Posts: 12795 Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:05 pmPost by aristotelian » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:04 am
Why do they need W2's these days? You don't attach them when filing electronically. kaneohe Posts: 6786 Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:38 pmPost by kaneohe » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:30 am
aristotelian wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:04 am Why do they need W2's these days? You don't attach them when filing electronically.
I only am familiar with one software program but it basically re-creates the W2 so it is available when e-filed.
If you have errors in that W2, e.g. EIN of employer, the return is rejected.
Post by fatmike91 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:04 am
And if you skip the paper and file electronically, life will be easier for all parties concerned.
[/quote]
LOL. I have no interest or intentions "of making it easy" for them.
I do use a clip, but don't staple.
Random Poster Posts: 3528 Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:17 amPost by Random Poster » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:05 am
CoastalWinds wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:03 pm The instructions say to “attach” the W-2 to the return. What does “attach” mean?
It means to staple. Or to clip. Or to affix together in some manner.
The rest of the return is "assembled."
rkhusky Posts: 18988 Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:09 pmPost by rkhusky » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:27 am
Random Poster wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:05 amCoastalWinds wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:03 pm The instructions say to “attach” the W-2 to the return. What does “attach” mean?
It means to staple. Or to clip. Or to affix together in some manner.
The rest of the return is "assembled."
Attachments are attached, otherwise they are not attachments.
Note that the pre-2018 1040 had a specific spot in which to attach the W2 and/or 1099.
Last edited by rkhusky on Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total. Kenkat Posts: 9839 Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:18 am Location: Cincinnati, OHPost by Kenkat » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:31 am
Random Poster wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:05 amCoastalWinds wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:03 pm The instructions say to “attach” the W-2 to the return. What does “attach” mean?
It means to staple. Or to clip. Or to affix together in some manner.
The rest of the return is "assembled."
Hot glue. Massive quantity of hot glue. Random Poster Posts: 3528 Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:17 amPost by Random Poster » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:46 am
rkhusky wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:27 am Attachments are attached, otherwise they are not attachments.
Note that the pre-2018 1040 had a specific spot in which to attach the W2 and/or 1099.
That may be, but that isn't quite what the IRS instructions say, which is:Assemble any schedules and forms behind Form 1040 or 1040-SR in order of the “Attachment Sequence No.” shown in the upper-right corner of the schedule or form. If you have supporting statements, arrange them in the same order as the schedules or forms they support and attach them last. File your return, schedules, and other attachments on standard size paper. Cutting the paper may cause problems in processing your return. Don’t attach correspondence or other items unless required to do so. Attach Forms W-2 and 2439 to Form 1040 or 1040-SR. If you received a Form W-2c (a corrected Form W-2), attach your original Forms W-2 and any Forms W-2c. Attach Forms W-2G and 1099-R to Form 1040 or 1040-SR if tax was withheld.
The instructions state to "assemble" the schedules and forms, and to "attach" supporting statements last (although to what is somewhat unclear), but to "attach" the W-2 forms to the 1040 Form.
If the attachments were meant to be attached, then the instructions would, presumably, state "assemble and attach ," but they don't.
rkhusky Posts: 18988 Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:09 pmPost by rkhusky » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:51 am
Random Poster wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:46 am If the attachments were meant to be attached, then the instructions would, presumably, state "assemble and attach ," but they don't.
if attachments were not meant to be attached, the IRS would not use the word attachment, which clearly is something that is attached.
If you search the 1040 instructions for the word attach, it is found on 32 pages, with instructions to attach various forms to your return. If you search the instructions for the various forms and schedules, you will see instructions for attaching the attachment to your return.
Last edited by rkhusky on Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total. beyou Posts: 7443 Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:57 pm Location: If you can make it therePost by beyou » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:54 am
I e-stapled mine. Random Poster Posts: 3528 Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:17 amPost by Random Poster » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:40 am
rkhusky wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:51 am if attachments were not meant to be attached, the IRS would not use the word attachment, which clearly is something that is attached.
If you search the 1040 instructions for the word attach, it is found on 32 pages, with instructions to attach various forms to your return. If you search the instructions for the various forms and schedules, you will see instructions for attaching the attachment to your return.
You do what you want, and I'll do what I want. I seriously doubt that stapling (or not stapling) is going to any effect on the validity of one's federal tax return.
TCB Posts: 41 Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:39 pmPost by TCB » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:47 am
Each form has an ‘attachment sequence #’, not an ‘assembly sequence #’.
Based on that, weren’t they meant to be attached?
Isn’t it inherent in their nature?
The Internal Revenue Service likely feels it is of little significance, otherwise they would specifically mention stapling/no stapling.
Based on this thread, perhaps they should reconsider.
dodecahedron Posts: 6757 Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:28 amPost by dodecahedron » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:51 am
At our VITA site, we efile most returns but occasionally need to prepare paper returns for our clients, for a variety of reasons.
We always staple the pages together (except for the 1040-V, if any, which we leave loose.) W-2s get stapled to the front, as do any 1099s that include withholding. The check for balance due (if any) is loose in the envelope.
This protocol has consistently worked just fine for our clients over the years.
When my late husband was still living, he did not like efiling so we also submitted our paper returns in this manner. It worked fine for us as well.
Abe Posts: 2607 Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:24 pm Location: Earth in the Milky Way GalaxyPost by Abe » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:53 am
Life is complicated Slow and steady wins the race. SmileyFace Posts: 9898 Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:11 amPost by SmileyFace » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:56 am
Nicolas wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:51 pm Do not staple anything. Your W2, if you have one, should be paper clipped to the back of form 1040 page 1, nothing else in a paper clip. That’s the way they want it and that the way it’s always been.
Read the specific instructions from the IRS, they tell you how to assemble your return!
That's not "the way it's always been" from my recollection. The last time I filed a paper return - nearly 3 decades ago I think now - there was a "Staple your W2 here" spot on the front of the form. There was a little mark where the staple was supposed to go.
OP: I would simply "google" this question if I were you - and then look for an answer from an "official" site - which in this case - would be irs.gove:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/at-01-30.pdf
IRS seems to say to attach W2 to the FRONT of 1040 - not the back.
Post by Spirit Rider » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:09 am
Kenkat wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:49 pm I don’t think you need to. The first thing they will do is remove the paper clip or staple and electronically scan everything to image.
As someone who spent at least three decades of his career in document imaging. Including many government contracts scanning forms. The scanning production workers will thank you for not stapling documents together. Finger injuries are an inevitable occurrence in high volume staple removal.
AAA Posts: 1927 Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:56 amPost by AAA » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:23 am
The instructions for the 1040-V payment voucher specifically say to leave it and the payment loose in the envelope. Do the 1040 instructions anywhere specifically say to leave it and the associated forms loose?
dodecahedron Posts: 6757 Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:28 amPost by dodecahedron » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:14 pm
Spirit Rider wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:09 amKenkat wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:49 pm I don’t think you need to. The first thing they will do is remove the paper clip or staple and electronically scan everything to image.
As someone who spent at least three decades of his career in document imaging. Including many government contracts scanning forms. The scanning production workers will thank you for not stapling documents together. Finger injuries are an inevitable occurrence in high volume staple removal.
If the IRS would just *scan* tax documents, there would be no need to actually mail in a multipage tax return. A single page well-designed summary return with a 2-D barcode could easily convey all the pages and pages of detail on a typical paper printout. A massive amount of detail can be communicated via a single 2-D barcode.
Unfortunately, the IRS does not do this. They have folks sitting at ¨Tingle tables¨ manually transcribing key lines from the submitted paper forms. Not at all obvious to me that it is helpful to them to have unstapled pages. (Tingle tables were an innovation invented by an IRS employee in 1962. He took the initiative to build a prototype in his backyard, according to page 25 of my previous link. I would guess that Mr. Tingle has long ago filed his own last return, but his eponymous tables were still in use at least as recently as 2019.)
Edited to add: more fascinating Tingle table lore here, including information from two of James Tingle´s children.
afan Posts: 8512 Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:01 pmPost by afan » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:32 pm
I staple. Then photocopy so that the copy shows the staples
I have had the IRS misplace a check, then claim we sent it in later, after filing the return. Tried to charge penalty and interest for the delay. Photocopy of the check, stapled to the return, fixed that.
Have had the same nonsense with IRS claiming we did not file the W2's. Photocopy of the W2 stapled to the return fixed that also.
So I staple everything and make copies showing the staples. No matter what the instructions may say.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
Kenkat Posts: 9839 Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:18 am Location: Cincinnati, OHPost by Kenkat » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:01 pm
dodecahedron wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:14 pm Spirit Rider wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:09 amKenkat wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:49 pm I don’t think you need to. The first thing they will do is remove the paper clip or staple and electronically scan everything to image.
As someone who spent at least three decades of his career in document imaging. Including many government contracts scanning forms. The scanning production workers will thank you for not stapling documents together. Finger injuries are an inevitable occurrence in high volume staple removal.
If the IRS would just *scan* tax documents, there would be no need to actually mail in a multipage tax return. A single page well-designed summary return with a 2-D barcode could easily convey all the pages and pages of detail on a typical paper printout. A massive amount of detail can be communicated via a single 2-D barcode. .
How would you take a handwritten tax return and turn it into a barcode? palanzo Posts: 2146 Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:28 pmPost by palanzo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:19 pm
Strider wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:54 pm Should IRS Form 1040 and associated schedules be stapled or attached to each other in some way? The tax packet instructions say nothing in this regard.
Why don’t you ask the IRS and let us all know? dodecahedron Posts: 6757 Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:28 amPost by dodecahedron » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:22 am
Kenkat wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:01 pm dodecahedron wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:14 pm Spirit Rider wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:09 amKenkat wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:49 pm I don’t think you need to. The first thing they will do is remove the paper clip or staple and electronically scan everything to image.
As someone who spent at least three decades of his career in document imaging. Including many government contracts scanning forms. The scanning production workers will thank you for not stapling documents together. Finger injuries are an inevitable occurrence in high volume staple removal.
If the IRS would just *scan* tax documents, there would be no need to actually mail in a multipage tax return. A single page well-designed summary return with a 2-D barcode could easily convey all the pages and pages of detail on a typical paper printout. A massive amount of detail can be communicated via a single 2-D barcode. .
How would you take a handwritten tax return and turn it into a barcode?Obviously you would not be able to take a handwritten tax return and turn it into a barcode, but tax software can easily do this. My state (NY) used to process paper returns by using 2-D barcodes. Now mandatory efile laws in my state may make this unnecessary and I am not not sure if they still use 2-D barcodes.
The IRS says there are a lot of folks they refer to as ¨v-coders,¨ that is, they prepare their returns using tax software, print it out, and mail it in. It would be more efficient for the IRS to use 2-D scanning to process those v-coded returns (as my state did) but I gather they don´t have a budget or administrative priority to convert to that technology.
Edited to add: I was a v-coder myself for many years (due to my late husband´s preferences for our MFJ returns.) After his death, I simplified my life and switched to just efiling.
Money Market Posts: 186 Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:36 amPost by Money Market » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:17 am
HueyLD wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:59 pm My thinking is that the IRS employees prefer not having to remove staples.
My state specifically asks us not to staple our tax forms because injuries due to staple removal caused the state a lot of money in worker’s compensation insurance.
This reminds me of several cases where certain municipal bus drivers got punched and had trivial bruises, then proceeded to take 6 months worth of sick leave because they were having "nightmares" and "trauma" about the incident.
VTSAX and chill. House Blend Posts: 4880 Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 1:02 pmPost by House Blend » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:50 am
aristotelian wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:04 am Why do they need W2's these days? You don't attach them when filing electronically.
There are a few states that are already on board with this:
you don't include any Forms W-2 or 1099 even when you paper file.
So perhaps we'll see that in the "What's New" section of the instructions for the Form 1040 in the near future. But considering what passes for innovation at the IRS (Exhibit A: the useless 1040-SR), I won't be holding my breath.
dodecahedron Posts: 6757 Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:28 amPost by dodecahedron » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:54 am
House Blend wrote: ↑ Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:50 amaristotelian wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:04 am Why do they need W2's these days? You don't attach them when filing electronically.
There are a few states that are already on board with this:
you don't include any Forms W-2 or 1099 even when you paper file.
NY just wants summary W-2 info transcribed into their forms, which have 2-D barcodes.
They do not want copies of the original W-2s (or 1099-Rs) included on paper filed returns. I am sure New York´s system is more efficient.
Big Dog Posts: 4835 Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:12 pmPost by Big Dog » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:57 am
you can staple or paperclip the W-2 to the first page. Do not staple anything else.
be careful of double-sided printing. While one form can be on one page (back to back), two different forms should not be printed on the same page (back to back).
Kenkat Posts: 9839 Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:18 am Location: Cincinnati, OHPost by Kenkat » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:32 pm
dodecahedron wrote: ↑ Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:22 am Kenkat wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:01 pm dodecahedron wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:14 pm Spirit Rider wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:09 amKenkat wrote: ↑ Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:49 pm I don’t think you need to. The first thing they will do is remove the paper clip or staple and electronically scan everything to image.
As someone who spent at least three decades of his career in document imaging. Including many government contracts scanning forms. The scanning production workers will thank you for not stapling documents together. Finger injuries are an inevitable occurrence in high volume staple removal.
If the IRS would just *scan* tax documents, there would be no need to actually mail in a multipage tax return. A single page well-designed summary return with a 2-D barcode could easily convey all the pages and pages of detail on a typical paper printout. A massive amount of detail can be communicated via a single 2-D barcode. .
How would you take a handwritten tax return and turn it into a barcode?Obviously you would not be able to take a handwritten tax return and turn it into a barcode, but tax software can easily do this. My state (NY) used to process paper returns by using 2-D barcodes. Now mandatory efile laws in my state may make this unnecessary and I am not not sure if they still use 2-D barcodes.
The IRS says there are a lot of folks they refer to as ¨v-coders,¨ that is, they prepare their returns using tax software, print it out, and mail it in. It would be more efficient for the IRS to use 2-D scanning to process those v-coded returns (as my state did) but I gather they don´t have a budget or administrative priority to convert to that technology.
Edited to add: I was a v-coder myself for many years (due to my late husband´s preferences for our MFJ returns.) After his death, I simplified my life and switched to just efiling.
Ok, I understand, thanks.
My comment, given experience with these types of decisions would be: does it make sense to further automate the “v-coders / do it in tax software but print it out and mail it” crowd as an interim state? Or should all energy be put into pushing people to e-file as the desired “end state”? I don’t know enough to answer that question - both are valid depending on volumes, resources available, etc.
scrabbler1 Posts: 2814 Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:39 pmPost by scrabbler1 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:50 pm
dodecahedron wrote: ↑ Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:54 am House Blend wrote: ↑ Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:50 amaristotelian wrote: ↑ Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:04 am Why do they need W2's these days? You don't attach them when filing electronically.
There are a few states that are already on board with this:
you don't include any Forms W-2 or 1099 even when you paper file.
NY just wants summary W-2 info transcribed into their forms, which have 2-D barcodes.
They do not want copies of the original W-2s (or 1099-Rs) included on paper filed returns. I am sure New York´s system is more efficient.
NY's method of filing a standardized W-2 (IT-2) form is also useful if you get any corrected W-2 forms. I do my ladyfriend's taxes, and she received not one but two corrected W-2 forms. All I had to do was create a single W-2 (IT-2) form which included only the correct info from each form, and only the data relevant to NY's IT-2 form (some of the corrected W-2 forms' data was irrelevant, thankfully).
NY's instructions are pretty explicit; in bold type it says, "Do not staple any items to the return." If the Feds wanted us to do the same thing, how hard would it be to include such plain, specific language?
As for my federal returns, I have always stapled the W-2s and 1099-Rs to the front of Form 1040, in the middle, even though those indicators are not shown any more. I don't staple 1040V or the check but I do staple the forms together at the top center.